Discussion:
Young Adult Nudist Groups at Odds
(too old to reply)
Anna
2011-04-22 18:34:09 UTC
Permalink
From a blog. So you can post to the blog directly as well as posting
here.

http://emergingnudist.blogspot.com/2011/04/young-adult-nudist-groups-at-odds.html

http://tinyurl.com/3fg8okk

No one inside the nudist & naturist community is unaware of the
difficulty our culture has in attracting young adults. Much has been
written about the "aging" demographics of the nudist culture. A number
of theories have been put forth that attempt to explain why young
adults, ages 18 to 30 do not embrace Nudism in large numbers.

Everyone from the national nudist organizations to individual clubs
and resorts have sought ways to attract the younger generations in
larger numbers. The assumption is that unless the nudist lifestyle
gets a reasonable inflow of new blood, the nudist & naturist lifestyle
may eventually disappear altogether and at least as far as the
traditional AANR-type nudist clubs go. Given the realities, it stands
to reason that all nudists & naturists would applaud a new, vibrant
group founded for the very purpose of promoting the benefits of nudist
lifestyle to young adults by seeking to raise the general awareness of
what Nudism & Naturism have to offer to those between 18 and 30.

Young Naturists and Nudists America Arrives on the Scene

On November 28, 2010, a press release announced the founding of just
such a group with the express aim to promote naturism to young adults
in the area encompassing New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. The
stated goal of the group, Young Naturists and Nudists America, was to
educate young adults about what naturism & nudism have to offer them
and to raise their awareness of the positive benefits of the
lifestyle. The organization began by putting up an educational website
in October 2010 and then began planning and hosting nudist events in
the greater New York - New Jersey area to garner more participation
among young Americans in the naturist & nudist lifestyle. The group
sought to "show the AANR how its done" when it came to garnering
interest in Nudism among the "younger tech savvy community" by
creating a fresh, relevant and informative website and by harnessing
integrating the powerful social networking tools available with the
Internet.

Controversy Erupts

The organization has since enjoyed some rather phenomenal success in
attracting young Americans to become registered members of the web-
based group, attracting participants to the hosted events and
followers on the organization's Facebook page. Yet recently, YNA has
come under fire from the founder of another young adult nudist group,
Florida Young Naturists. That group's founder, Robbe White, published
on the FYN website, a Public Statement regarding YNA (Young Naturists
America), dated March 3, 2011, in which he stated, "I do not support
YNA." In the statement, White justifies his non-support by explaining
that the YNA Facebook page contributes to the linkage between social
nudity and sex by seemingly welcoming "self-proclaimed, proud voyeurs,
exhibitionists and swingers" to the folds of YNA and thus does a
disservice to the naturist community. White went on to say that, "From
what I can gather YNA is a lifestyle [swingers] group" that harmed the
reputation of respect and wholesomeness that traditional naturists had
worked hard to build.

The YNA Response

Understandably, perhaps YNA founders were outraged by White's public
statement and a "war of words" began via posts to the YNA website and
Facebook page. An entire forum thread on the site titled, "Robbe White
of Florida Young Naturists Attacks YNA - Again," was started by one of
the YNA founders, J. Blum. Another YNA founder, "Felicity" posted a
scathing response to White's statements terming them "ludicrous and
unfounded accusations."

While I'm not taking sides in the argument, the truth about YNA is
likely somewhere in the middle between the respective positions of
White and YNA founders. Reading the forum thread referenced above in
its entirety, as it goes along, YNA does not in my opinion seem to
distance itself strongly enough from embracing a policy of excluding
those who may be attracted to YNA membership and hosted events for
reasons other than wholesome, non-sexual nudity. The tone seems to be
that the sexuality of others is not their business or the business of
White, and that excluding people from participation at YNA or from the
nudist lifestyle just because they may also embrace swinging or other
non-traditional sexuality is prejudicial and old-fashioned.

In fairness to YNA, I have followed the group since becoming aware of
the organization in November 2010. Based on the information presented
both on the YNA website and a companion blog owned and published by
"Felicity" I have to say I was impressed with the pureness of the
motives and intents of YNA in the beginning. I think they sincerely
wanted to introduce young adults in greater numbers to traditional,
wholesome and non-sexual Nudism & Naturism. In a way perhaps, YNA has
simply become a victim of its own success.

The Internet can be a powerful tool for any movement, including
Nudism. The problem is that even legitimate nudist & naturist websites
that provide social networking attract more than their fair share of
perverts and predators, along with a good number of swingers who for
some reason feel the need to try and co-opt Nudism to garner
credibility. The fact is, Nudism and Naturism is about enjoying nudity
for the sake of the joy and freedom of being nude, either alone or
with others. Swinging on the other hand is about sex, having sex with
a partner or partners other than your own. Nudity within the swinger
lifestyle is simply peripheral to the lifestyles true focus. I am not
condemning swingers, I just wish that as a nudist they would identify
with their own lifestyle instead of trying to be considered a part of
non-sexual Nudism & Naturism. Certainly, there are likely many "true"
nudists who also participate in swinging but the fact is a nudist
engaged in swinging is participating in the swinger lifestyle not in
traditional Nudism.

Visiting the YNA website just today, while visiting the community page
I saw a number of photographs uploaded to the site that were nothing
but crude "crotch shots." I also found on the Facebook page and forums
a number of posts by YNA members expressing the opinion that since
sexuality was a private and individual matter there was nothing
inherently wrong with a person mixing sex with Nudism and Naturism. If
YNA wants to be a respected and credible voice for the nudist &
naturist culture, they should spend less time on public denouncements
of their critics and more time ferreting out the undesirables and
swinger lifestylers within their membership. Crotch shots are not
appropriate, especially the ones like I observed that sported a
disembodied erect penis, have no place on a legitimate nudists &
naturists website. No forum posts should go unchallenged by site
moderators that proclaim that mixing nudism with sex is an individual
decision and there is nothing wrong with it.

I think YNA has accomplished some positive things for nudist culture
and has the potential for being a positive force among young adults.
Yet if the organization does not take effective steps to address the
issues that unfortunately all legitimate nudist websites face, the
will simply continue to lose respectability and credibility among real
nudists & naturists. If any nudist website is allowed to remain too
all-inclusive then soon it becomes just as slimy and lacking in
credibility among true nudists as a site like "Pure Nudism" that is
nothing more than a garden-variety porn site.
Anna
2011-04-22 18:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna
From a blog. So you can post to the blog directly as well as posting
here.
http://emergingnudist.blogspot.com/2011/04/young-adult-nudist-groups-at-odds.html
http://tinyurl.com/3fg8okk
No one inside the nudist & naturist community is unaware of the
difficulty our culture has in attracting young adults. Much has been
written about the "aging" demographics of the nudist culture. A number
of theories have been put forth that attempt to explain why young
adults, ages 18 to 30 do not embrace Nudism in large numbers.
I read an article from TIME magazine that mentioned that.

IT WAS FROM 1971.

So, it really isn't a new "problem". I honestly don't see it even as
a problem as nudism has survived despite this.

Please read this article. It is quite interesting. What makes it most
interesting is that it was from 1971 and like I said back then they
were claiming that the lack of young people would lead to nudism's
decline. Well nudism is still here.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,905385-1,00.html




Gosh, if you didn't know the date this was written wouldn't you almost
think that this was an article that was like written last week about
nudism. So little has changed over the years when it comes to articles
relating to nudism.
Zee
2011-04-22 19:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna
Post by Anna
From a blog. So you can post to the blog directly as well as posting
here.
http://emergingnudist.blogspot.com/2011/04/young-adult-nudist-groups-...
http://tinyurl.com/3fg8okk
No one inside the nudist & naturist community is unaware of the
difficulty our culture has in attracting young adults. Much has been
written about the "aging" demographics of the nudist culture. A number
of theories have been put forth that attempt to explain why young
adults, ages 18 to 30 do not embrace Nudism in large numbers.
I read an article from TIME magazine that mentioned that.
IT WAS FROM 1971.
So, it really isn't a new "problem".  I honestly don't see it even as
a problem as nudism has survived despite this.
Please read this article. It is quite interesting. What makes it most
interesting is that it was from 1971 and like I said back then they
were claiming that the lack of young people would lead to nudism's
decline.  Well nudism is still here.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,905385-1,00.html
Gosh, if you didn't know the date this was written wouldn't you almost
think that this was an article that was like written last week about
nudism. So little has changed over the years when it comes to articles
relating to nudism.
Anna.....on planet earth humans will not ever pay attention to a group
that says....we are wholesome but naked.....that is the goofiest
statement mankind has ever made.......now to prove it.....i have never
heard of a genuine Christian church that ever in the eons times of
history making a statement that we are constantly being invaded by
folks trying to introduce sin or inappropriate behavior to our
churches....yes there is an occassional pastor or preacher that goes
astray but it is not where they stood in front of the audience and did
their misbehaving.....like the naked folks coming to so called
wholesome nudist places.....so there you have it .....why do they not
come to Christian churches and behave like they do when coming to
nudist places......so how do you have it figured.......z
Dario Western
2011-04-22 20:36:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bill,

"Anna.....on planet earth humans will not ever pay attention to a group that
says....we are wholesome but naked....."

Maybe Americans and Australians might not, but not necessarily everyone
else. Have you never been to a nudist beach? Do you ever see the masses of
nude beach punters going at it like rabbits? I haven't.

"that is the goofiest statement mankind has ever made.......now to prove
it.....i have never heard of a genuine Christian church that ever in the
eons times of
history making a statement that we are constantly being invaded by folks
trying to introduce sin or inappropriate behavior to our churches...."

What about the controversy about allowing GBLT people to marry? There are
still a number of Christians out there who think that homosexuality is
sinful.

"yes there is an occassional pastor or preacher that goes astray but it is
not where they stood in front of the audience and did their
misbehaving.....like the naked folks coming to so called wholesome nudist
places.....so there you have it .....why do they not come to Christian
churches and behave like they do when coming to
nudist places......so how do you have it figured.......z"

Because churches are not places of recreation like social clubs and beaches
are. Recreation is not the same thing as worship. But you do have a good
point there: if there is a certain type of behaviour that is not acceptable
in other social establishments (churches included), then don't go
propagating it in nudist places either.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Best wishes,

Dario Western

"A noble heart embiggens the smallest of men" - Jebediah Springfield

Mobile: (0437) 428-859
Website: http://picasaweb.google.com/westernorama
http://www.youtube.com/user/fatpizzaman
http://fatpizzaman.blogspot.com
http://www.orkut.com/Main#Profile?uid=2147852057525588972
Zee
2011-04-22 20:52:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dario Western
Hi Bill,
"Anna.....on planet earth humans will not ever pay attention to a group that
says....we are wholesome but naked....."
Maybe Americans and Australians might not, but not necessarily everyone
else.  Have you never been to a nudist beach?  Do you ever see the masses of
nude beach punters going at it like rabbits?  I haven't.
"that is the goofiest statement mankind has ever made.......now to prove
it.....i have never heard of a genuine Christian church that ever in the
eons times of
history making a statement that we are constantly being invaded by folks
trying to introduce sin or inappropriate behavior to our churches...."
What about the controversy about allowing GBLT people to marry?  There are
still a number of Christians out there who think that homosexuality is
sinful.
"yes there is an occassional pastor or preacher that goes astray but it is
not where they stood in front of the audience and did their
misbehaving.....like the naked folks coming to so called wholesome nudist
places.....so there you have it .....why do they not come to Christian
churches and behave like they do when coming to
nudist places......so how do you have it figured.......z"
Because churches are not places of recreation like social clubs and beaches
are.  Recreation is not the same thing as worship.  But you do have a good
point there: if there is a certain type of behaviour that is not acceptable
in other social establishments (churches included), then don't go
propagating it in nudist places either.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-------------
Best wishes,
Dario Western
"A noble heart embiggens the smallest of men" - Jebediah Springfield
Mobile: (0437) 428-859
Website:http://picasaweb.google.com/westernorama
               http://www.youtube.com/user/fatpizzaman
               http://fatpizzaman.blogspot.com
               http://www.orkut.com/Main#Profile?uid=2147852057525588972
hey Dario....great response......lemme see.....my personal opinion is
that most or a large percentage of genuine Christians do not accept
homosexual behavior as non sinful....yes there has been the few
homosexuals that have split off left and built their own Church under
the Christian name......and no i have not seen even the most wild
assed nude beach where everyone was going at it.... but i have seen
rampant sex at hippie hollow about the time the sun goes down ......as
when the beach is crowded sex seekers tend to meander around meeting
folks and making for the sun down time.....ever at a swingers club
youi selfdom see everyone going at it....that would tend to illustrate
a video being made or some kind of good dope someone just brought
in.......but you did get my drift.....the naked factor causes folks to
say hey...look at my nakedness and of course this youth group in nyc
is correct in saying.....we do not turn them away but we still
advocate wholesome nudism.....see a thousand years from now there will
be a lot of Anna that will say ...well look for we are saying
today....see back in 2011 they were saying the same thing.....now if
the churches said.....next easter sunday we are going naked.....then
yes it would be sex in the pulpit......but the strict dress causes
folks to respect the Church as not being a place to act inappropriate
but where there is nakedness then there is always some that will join
you.......z
Marc
2011-04-22 21:29:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zee
Post by Dario Western
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-------------
Best wishes,
Dario Western
"A noble heart embiggens the smallest of men" - Jebediah Springfield
Mobile: (0437) 428-859
Website:http://picasaweb.google.com/westernorama
http://www.youtube.com/user/fatpizzaman
http://fatpizzaman.blogspot.com
http://www.orkut.com/Main#Profile?uid=2147852057525588972
hey Dario....great response......lemme see.....my personal opinion is
As always,incomprehensible?
Zee
2011-04-22 23:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zee
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­­--------------------------------------------------------------------------­-­-------------
Best wishes,
Dario Western
"A noble heart embiggens the smallest of men" - Jebediah Springfield
Mobile: (0437) 428-859
Website:http://picasaweb.google.com/westernorama
               http://www.youtube.com/user/fatpizzaman
               http://fatpizzaman.blogspot.com
               http://www.orkut.com/Main#Profile?uid=2147852057525588972
hey Dario....great response......lemme see.....my personal opinion is
As always,incomprehensible?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
marc......Dario is a great interpretor of my writing ...z
Zee
2011-04-23 17:47:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna
From a blog. So you can post to the blog directly as well as posting
here.
http://emergingnudist.blogspot.com/2011/04/young-adult-nudist-groups-...
http://tinyurl.com/3fg8okk
No one inside the nudist & naturist community is unaware of the
difficulty our culture has in attracting young adults. Much has been
written about the "aging" demographics of the nudist culture. A number
of theories have been put forth that attempt to explain why young
adults, ages 18 to 30 do not embrace Nudism in large numbers.
Everyone from the national nudist organizations to individual clubs
and resorts have sought ways to attract the younger generations in
larger numbers. The assumption is that unless the nudist lifestyle
gets a reasonable inflow of new blood, the nudist & naturist lifestyle
may eventually disappear altogether and at least as far as the
traditional AANR-type nudist clubs go. Given the realities, it stands
to reason that all nudists & naturists would applaud a new, vibrant
group founded for the very purpose of promoting the benefits of nudist
lifestyle to young adults by seeking to raise the general awareness of
what Nudism & Naturism have to offer to those between 18 and 30.
Young Naturists and Nudists America Arrives on the Scene
On November 28, 2010, a press release announced the founding of just
such a group with the express aim to promote naturism to young adults
in the area encompassing New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. The
stated goal of the group, Young Naturists and Nudists America, was to
educate young adults about what naturism & nudism have to offer them
and to raise their awareness of the positive benefits of the
lifestyle. The organization began by putting up an educational website
in October 2010 and then began planning and hosting nudist events in
the greater New York - New Jersey area to garner more participation
among young Americans in the naturist & nudist lifestyle. The group
sought to "show the AANR how its done" when it came to garnering
interest in Nudism among the "younger tech savvy community" by
creating a fresh, relevant and informative website and by harnessing
integrating the powerful social networking tools available with the
Internet.
Controversy Erupts
The organization has since enjoyed some rather phenomenal success in
attracting young Americans to become registered members of the web-
based group, attracting participants to the hosted events and
followers on the organization's Facebook page. Yet recently, YNA has
come under fire from the founder of another young adult nudist group,
Florida Young Naturists. That group's founder, Robbe White, published
on the FYN website, a Public Statement regarding YNA (Young Naturists
America), dated March 3, 2011, in which he stated, "I do not support
YNA." In the statement, White justifies his non-support by explaining
that the YNA Facebook page contributes to the linkage between social
nudity and sex by seemingly welcoming "self-proclaimed, proud voyeurs,
exhibitionists and swingers" to the folds of YNA and thus does a
disservice to the naturist community. White went on to say that, "From
what I can gather YNA is a lifestyle [swingers] group" that harmed the
reputation of respect and wholesomeness that traditional naturists had
worked hard to build.
The YNA Response
Understandably, perhaps YNA founders were outraged by White's public
statement and a "war of words" began via posts to the YNA website and
Facebook page. An entire forum thread on the site titled, "Robbe White
of Florida Young Naturists Attacks YNA - Again," was started by one of
the YNA founders, J. Blum. Another YNA founder, "Felicity" posted a
scathing response to White's statements terming them "ludicrous and
unfounded accusations."
While I'm not taking sides in the argument, the truth about YNA is
likely somewhere in the middle between the respective positions of
White and YNA founders. Reading the forum thread referenced above in
its entirety, as it goes along, YNA does not in my opinion seem to
distance itself strongly enough from embracing a policy of excluding
those who may be attracted to YNA membership and hosted events for
reasons other than wholesome, non-sexual nudity. The tone seems to be
that the sexuality of others is not their business or the business of
White, and that excluding people from participation at YNA or from the
nudist lifestyle just because they may also embrace swinging or other
non-traditional sexuality is prejudicial and old-fashioned.
In fairness to YNA, I have followed the group since becoming aware of
the organization in November 2010. Based on the information presented
both on the YNA website and a companion blog owned and published by
"Felicity" I have to say I was impressed with the pureness of the
motives and intents of YNA in the beginning. I think they sincerely
wanted to introduce young adults in greater numbers to traditional,
wholesome and non-sexual Nudism & Naturism. In a way perhaps, YNA has
simply become a victim of its own success.
The Internet can be a powerful tool for any movement, including
Nudism. The problem is that even legitimate nudist & naturist websites
that provide social networking attract more than their fair share of
perverts and predators, along with a good number of swingers who for
some reason feel the need to try and co-opt Nudism to garner
credibility. The fact is, Nudism and Naturism is about enjoying nudity
for the sake of the joy and freedom of being nude, either alone or
with others. Swinging on the other hand is about sex, having sex with
a partner or partners other than your own. Nudity within the swinger
lifestyle is simply peripheral to the lifestyles true focus. I am not
condemning swingers, I just wish that as a nudist they would identify
with their own lifestyle instead of trying to be considered a part of
non-sexual Nudism & Naturism. Certainly, there are likely many "true"
nudists who also participate in swinging but the fact is a nudist
engaged in swinging is participating in the swinger lifestyle not in
traditional Nudism.
Visiting the YNA website just today, while visiting the community page
I saw a number of photographs uploaded to the site that were nothing
but crude "crotch shots." I also found on the Facebook page and forums
a number of posts by YNA members expressing the opinion that since
sexuality was a private and individual matter there was nothing
inherently wrong with a person mixing sex with Nudism and Naturism. If
YNA wants to be a respected and credible voice for the nudist &
naturist culture, they should spend less time on public denouncements
of their critics and more time ferreting out the undesirables and
swinger lifestylers within their membership. Crotch shots are not
appropriate, especially the ones like I observed that sported a
disembodied erect penis, have no place on a legitimate nudists &
naturists website. No forum posts should go unchallenged by site
moderators that proclaim that mixing nudism with sex is an individual
decision and there is nothing wrong with it.
I think YNA has accomplished some positive things for nudist culture
and has the potential for being a positive force among young adults.
Yet if the organization does not take effective steps to address the
issues that unfortunately all legitimate nudist websites face, the
will simply continue to lose respectability and credibility among real
nudists & naturists. If any nudist website is allowed to remain too
all-inclusive then soon it becomes just as slimy and lacking in
credibility among true nudists as a site like "Pure Nudism" that is
nothing more than a garden-variety porn site.
after clicking the young naturist blog.....and clicking the dallas
young writer.....one gets the feeling that since dallas has just been
voted by the kiwanis club organization as being the sexiest city in
the usa.....but is not tolerant of social nudity.....dallas and fort
worth metroplex does have quite a few nudist facilities and has a
history of child sexual exploitation in a few of the camps and they
were highly publisized in the local news...i think this is one of the
reasons that it is not a friendly issue in that area......it has not
fully recovered from that issue.....the newpapers did carry business
ads for the camps but over the last decade they have stopped those
ads.....and it appears that the pitch now is for young nudist but not
real young nudist as the dallas writer does not mention family nudism
so could it be the nudism all the way from west to east is going young
but not too young......it appears that nudism is like most other
businesses these days ....price of fuel and higher prices are forcing
folks to stay closer to home......z
Jenny6833A
2011-04-23 18:56:13 UTC
Permalink
IMO, the quoted blog almost totally misses the two relevant points.

First, nudism doesn't (and can't) inquire into what people may do when
not participating in "pure" nudism. All we can ask is that they act
like "pure" nudists when participating in "pure" nudism.

Second, I haven't looked at the web site in question. Having said
that, I don't regard "crotch shots" as inherently sexually oriented
for the same reasons I don't regard shots of faces as inherently
eating oriented or inherently breathing oriented.

I strongly suspect that the nutcases who see sex in everything are
once again jousting with the all too few sensible, realistic nudists
among us.

:-)

Jenny

----------------------- .
Post by Anna
From a blog. So you can post to the blog directly as well as posting
here.
http://emergingnudist.blogspot.com/2011/04/young-adult-nudist-groups-...
http://tinyurl.com/3fg8okk
No one inside the nudist & naturist community is unaware of the
difficulty our culture has in attracting young adults. Much has been
written about the "aging" demographics of the nudist culture. A number
of theories have been put forth that attempt to explain why young
adults, ages 18 to 30 do not embrace Nudism in large numbers.
Everyone from the national nudist organizations to individual clubs
and resorts have sought ways to attract the younger generations in
larger numbers. The assumption is that unless the nudist lifestyle
gets a reasonable inflow of new blood, the nudist & naturist lifestyle
may eventually disappear altogether and at least as far as the
traditional AANR-type nudist clubs go. Given the realities, it stands
to reason that all nudists & naturists would applaud a new, vibrant
group founded for the very purpose of promoting the benefits of nudist
lifestyle to young adults by seeking to raise the general awareness of
what Nudism & Naturism have to offer to those between 18 and 30.
Young Naturists and Nudists America Arrives on the Scene
On November 28, 2010, a press release announced the founding of just
such a group with the express aim to promote naturism to young adults
in the area encompassing New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. The
stated goal of the group, Young Naturists and Nudists America, was to
educate young adults about what naturism & nudism have to offer them
and to raise their awareness of the positive benefits of the
lifestyle. The organization began by putting up an educational website
in October 2010 and then began planning and hosting nudist events in
the greater New York - New Jersey area to garner more participation
among young Americans in the naturist & nudist lifestyle. The group
sought to "show the AANR how its done" when it came to garnering
interest in Nudism among the "younger tech savvy community" by
creating a fresh, relevant and informative website and by harnessing
integrating the powerful social networking tools available with the
Internet.
Controversy Erupts
The organization has since enjoyed some rather phenomenal success in
attracting young Americans to become registered members of the web-
based group, attracting participants to the hosted events and
followers on the organization's Facebook page. Yet recently, YNA has
come under fire from the founder of another young adult nudist group,
Florida Young Naturists. That group's founder, Robbe White, published
on the FYN website, a Public Statement regarding YNA (Young Naturists
America), dated March 3, 2011, in which he stated, "I do not support
YNA." In the statement, White justifies his non-support by explaining
that the YNA Facebook page contributes to the linkage between social
nudity and sex by seemingly welcoming "self-proclaimed, proud voyeurs,
exhibitionists and swingers" to the folds of YNA and thus does a
disservice to the naturist community. White went on to say that, "From
what I can gather YNA is a lifestyle [swingers] group" that harmed the
reputation of respect and wholesomeness that traditional naturists had
worked hard to build.
The YNA Response
Understandably, perhaps YNA founders were outraged by White's public
statement and a "war of words" began via posts to the YNA website and
Facebook page. An entire forum thread on the site titled, "Robbe White
of Florida Young Naturists Attacks YNA - Again," was started by one of
the YNA founders, J. Blum. Another YNA founder, "Felicity" posted a
scathing response to White's statements terming them "ludicrous and
unfounded accusations."
While I'm not taking sides in the argument, the truth about YNA is
likely somewhere in the middle between the respective positions of
White and YNA founders. Reading the forum thread referenced above in
its entirety, as it goes along, YNA does not in my opinion seem to
distance itself strongly enough from embracing a policy of excluding
those who may be attracted to YNA membership and hosted events for
reasons other than wholesome, non-sexual nudity. The tone seems to be
that the sexuality of others is not their business or the business of
White, and that excluding people from participation at YNA or from the
nudist lifestyle just because they may also embrace swinging or other
non-traditional sexuality is prejudicial and old-fashioned.
In fairness to YNA, I have followed the group since becoming aware of
the organization in November 2010. Based on the information presented
both on the YNA website and a companion blog owned and published by
"Felicity" I have to say I was impressed with the pureness of the
motives and intents of YNA in the beginning. I think they sincerely
wanted to introduce young adults in greater numbers to traditional,
wholesome and non-sexual Nudism & Naturism. In a way perhaps, YNA has
simply become a victim of its own success.
The Internet can be a powerful tool for any movement, including
Nudism. The problem is that even legitimate nudist & naturist websites
that provide social networking attract more than their fair share of
perverts and predators, along with a good number of swingers who for
some reason feel the need to try and co-opt Nudism to garner
credibility. The fact is, Nudism and Naturism is about enjoying nudity
for the sake of the joy and freedom of being nude, either alone or
with others. Swinging on the other hand is about sex, having sex with
a partner or partners other than your own. Nudity within the swinger
lifestyle is simply peripheral to the lifestyles true focus. I am not
condemning swingers, I just wish that as a nudist they would identify
with their own lifestyle instead of trying to be considered a part of
non-sexual Nudism & Naturism. Certainly, there are likely many "true"
nudists who also participate in swinging but the fact is a nudist
engaged in swinging is participating in the swinger lifestyle not in
traditional Nudism.
Visiting the YNA website just today, while visiting the community page
I saw a number of photographs uploaded to the site that were nothing
but crude "crotch shots." I also found on the Facebook page and forums
a number of posts by YNA members expressing the opinion that since
sexuality was a private and individual matter there was nothing
inherently wrong with a person mixing sex with Nudism and Naturism. If
YNA wants to be a respected and credible voice for the nudist &
naturist culture, they should spend less time on public denouncements
of their critics and more time ferreting out the undesirables and
swinger lifestylers within their membership. Crotch shots are not
appropriate, especially the ones like I observed that sported a
disembodied erect penis, have no place on a legitimate nudists &
naturists website. No forum posts should go unchallenged by site
moderators that proclaim that mixing nudism with sex is an individual
decision and there is nothing wrong with it.
I think YNA has accomplished some positive things for nudist culture
and has the potential for being a positive force among young adults.
Yet if the organization does not take effective steps to address the
issues that unfortunately all legitimate nudist websites face, the
will simply continue to lose respectability and credibility among real
nudists & naturists. If any nudist website is allowed to remain too
all-inclusive then soon it becomes just as slimy and lacking in
credibility among true nudists as a site like "Pure Nudism" that is
nothing more than a garden-variety porn site.
Marc
2011-04-23 20:07:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny6833A
IMO, the quoted blog
What quoted blog?
Dario Western
2011-04-23 20:14:30 UTC
Permalink
Why don't you read the whole message instead of asking such stupid
questions?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Best wishes,

Dario Western

"A noble heart embiggens the smallest of men" - Jebediah Springfield

Mobile: (0437) 428-859
Website: http://picasaweb.google.com/westernorama
http://www.youtube.com/user/fatpizzaman
http://fatpizzaman.blogspot.com
http://www.orkut.com/Main#Profile?uid=2147852057525588972
Post by Marc
Post by Jenny6833A
IMO, the quoted blog
What quoted blog?
Marc
2011-04-23 22:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dario Western
Why don't you read the whole message instead of asking such stupid
questions?
I did, there wasn't any more message, just one line.
Jenny6833A
2011-04-24 08:42:53 UTC
Permalink
On 23/04/2011 21:14, Dario Western wrote:> Why don't you read the whole message instead of asking such stupid
Post by Dario Western
questions?
I did, there wasn't any more message, just one line.
And what, oh what, did that one line say?

ROTFLM6833AO!!!

Jenny
Marc
2011-04-24 09:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny6833A
On 23/04/2011 21:14, Dario Western wrote:> Why don't you read the whole message instead of asking such stupid
Post by Dario Western
questions?
I did, there wasn't any more message, just one line.
And what, oh what, did that one line say?
ROTFLM6833AO!!!
Jenny
"IMO, the quoted blog almost totally misses the two relevant points."


No reference to a "quoted blog" just straight in...
Jenny6833A
2011-04-24 19:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc
Post by Jenny6833A
On 23/04/2011 21:14, Dario Western wrote:>  Why don't you read the whole message instead of asking such stupid
Post by Dario Western
questions?
I did, there wasn't any more message, just one line.
And what, oh what, did that one line say?
ROTFLM6833AO!!!
Jenny
"IMO, the quoted blog almost totally misses the two relevant points."
No reference to a "quoted blog" just straight in...
You didn't find a clickable line that says something like, "Show
quoted text"?

:-)

Jenny
Marc
2011-04-24 19:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny6833A
Post by Marc
Post by Jenny6833A
On 23/04/2011 21:14, Dario Western wrote:> Why don't you read the whole message instead of asking such stupid
Post by Dario Western
questions?
I did, there wasn't any more message, just one line.
And what, oh what, did that one line say?
ROTFLM6833AO!!!
Jenny
"IMO, the quoted blog almost totally misses the two relevant points."
No reference to a "quoted blog" just straight in...
You didn't find a clickable line that says something like, "Show
quoted text"?
:-)
Jenny
You hadn't quoted any text, the first line was, "IMO, the quoted blog
almost totally misses the two relevant points."

Made as much sense as someone walking into a bar and saying, " I agree,
that was completely wrong" eveyone else would look over their glasses
and think " What the bloody hell is he blathering about?"
Zee
2011-04-23 21:45:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny6833A
IMO, the quoted blog almost totally misses the two relevant points.
First, nudism doesn't (and can't) inquire into what people may do when
not participating in "pure" nudism.  All we can ask is that they act
like "pure" nudists when participating in "pure" nudism.
Second, I haven't looked at the web site in question.  Having said
that, I don't regard "crotch shots" as inherently sexually oriented
for the same reasons I don't regard shots of faces as inherently
eating oriented or inherently breathing oriented.
I strongly suspect that the nutcases who see sex in everything are
once again jousting with the all too few sensible, realistic nudists
among us.
:-)
Jenny
----------------------- .
Post by Anna
From a blog. So you can post to the blog directly as well as posting
here.
http://emergingnudist.blogspot.com/2011/04/young-adult-nudist-groups-...
http://tinyurl.com/3fg8okk
No one inside the nudist & naturist community is unaware of the
difficulty our culture has in attracting young adults. Much has been
written about the "aging" demographics of the nudist culture. A number
of theories have been put forth that attempt to explain why young
adults, ages 18 to 30 do not embrace Nudism in large numbers.
Everyone from the national nudist organizations to individual clubs
and resorts have sought ways to attract the younger generations in
larger numbers. The assumption is that unless the nudist lifestyle
gets a reasonable inflow of new blood, the nudist & naturist lifestyle
may eventually disappear altogether and at least as far as the
traditional AANR-type nudist clubs go. Given the realities, it stands
to reason that all nudists & naturists would applaud a new, vibrant
group founded for the very purpose of promoting the benefits of nudist
lifestyle to young adults by seeking to raise the general awareness of
what Nudism & Naturism have to offer to those between 18 and 30.
Young Naturists and Nudists America Arrives on the Scene
On November 28, 2010, a press release announced the founding of just
such a group with the express aim to promote naturism to young adults
in the area encompassing New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. The
stated goal of the group, Young Naturists and Nudists America, was to
educate young adults about what naturism & nudism have to offer them
and to raise their awareness of the positive benefits of the
lifestyle. The organization began by putting up an educational website
in October 2010 and then began planning and hosting nudist events in
the greater New York - New Jersey area to garner more participation
among young Americans in the naturist & nudist lifestyle. The group
sought to "show the AANR how its done" when it came to garnering
interest in Nudism among the "younger tech savvy community" by
creating a fresh, relevant and informative website and by harnessing
integrating the powerful social networking tools available with the
Internet.
Controversy Erupts
The organization has since enjoyed some rather phenomenal success in
attracting young Americans to become registered members of the web-
based group, attracting participants to the hosted events and
followers on the organization's Facebook page. Yet recently, YNA has
come under fire from the founder of another young adult nudist group,
Florida Young Naturists. That group's founder, Robbe White, published
on the FYN website, a Public Statement regarding YNA (Young Naturists
America), dated March 3, 2011, in which he stated, "I do not support
YNA." In the statement, White justifies his non-support by explaining
that the YNA Facebook page contributes to the linkage between social
nudity and sex by seemingly welcoming "self-proclaimed, proud voyeurs,
exhibitionists and swingers" to the folds of YNA and thus does a
disservice to the naturist community. White went on to say that, "From
what I can gather YNA is a lifestyle [swingers] group" that harmed the
reputation of respect and wholesomeness that traditional naturists had
worked hard to build.
The YNA Response
Understandably, perhaps YNA founders were outraged by White's public
statement and a "war of words" began via posts to the YNA website and
Facebook page. An entire forum thread on the site titled, "Robbe White
of Florida Young Naturists Attacks YNA - Again," was started by one of
the YNA founders, J. Blum. Another YNA founder, "Felicity" posted a
scathing response to White's statements terming them "ludicrous and
unfounded accusations."
While I'm not taking sides in the argument, the truth about YNA is
likely somewhere in the middle between the respective positions of
White and YNA founders. Reading the forum thread referenced above in
its entirety, as it goes along, YNA does not in my opinion seem to
distance itself strongly enough from embracing a policy of excluding
those who may be attracted to YNA membership and hosted events for
reasons other than wholesome, non-sexual nudity. The tone seems to be
that the sexuality of others is not their business or the business of
White, and that excluding people from participation at YNA or from the
nudist lifestyle just because they may also embrace swinging or other
non-traditional sexuality is prejudicial and old-fashioned.
In fairness to YNA, I have followed the group since becoming aware of
the organization in November 2010. Based on the information presented
both on the YNA website and a companion blog owned and published by
"Felicity" I have to say I was impressed with the pureness of the
motives and intents of YNA in the beginning. I think they sincerely
wanted to introduce young adults in greater numbers to traditional,
wholesome and non-sexual Nudism & Naturism. In a way perhaps, YNA has
simply become a victim of its own success.
The Internet can be a powerful tool for any movement, including
Nudism. The problem is that even legitimate nudist & naturist websites
that provide social networking attract more than their fair share of
perverts and predators, along with a good number of swingers who for
some reason feel the need to try and co-opt Nudism to garner
credibility. The fact is, Nudism and Naturism is about enjoying nudity
for the sake of the joy and freedom of being nude, either alone or
with others. Swinging on the other hand is about sex, having sex with
a partner or partners other than your own. Nudity within the swinger
lifestyle is simply peripheral to the lifestyles true focus. I am not
condemning swingers, I just wish that as a nudist they would identify
with their own lifestyle instead of trying to be considered a part of
non-sexual Nudism & Naturism. Certainly, there are likely many "true"
nudists who also participate in swinging but the fact is a nudist
engaged in swinging is participating in the swinger lifestyle not in
traditional Nudism.
Visiting the YNA website just today, while visiting the community page
I saw a number of photographs uploaded to the site that were nothing
but crude "crotch shots." I also found on the Facebook page and forums
a number of posts by YNA members expressing the opinion that since
sexuality was a private and individual matter there was nothing
inherently wrong with a person mixing sex with Nudism and Naturism. If
YNA wants to be a respected and credible voice for the nudist &
naturist culture, they should spend less time on public denouncements
of their critics and more time ferreting out the undesirables and
swinger lifestylers within their membership. Crotch shots are not
appropriate, especially the ones like I observed that sported a
disembodied erect penis, have no place on a legitimate nudists &
naturists website. No forum posts should go unchallenged by site
moderators that proclaim that mixing nudism with sex is an individual
decision and there is nothing wrong with it.
I think YNA has accomplished some positive things for nudist culture
and has the potential for being a positive force among young adults.
Yet if the organization does not take effective steps to address the
issues that unfortunately all legitimate nudist websites face, the
will simply continue to lose respectability and credibility among real
nudists & naturists. If any nudist website is allowed to remain too
all-inclusive then soon it becomes just as slimy and lacking in
credibility among true nudists as a site like "Pure Nudism" that is
nothing more than a garden-variety porn site.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
or vice versa.......z
Anna
2011-04-26 23:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jenny6833A
IMO, the quoted blog almost totally misses the two relevant points.
First, nudism doesn't (and can't) inquire into what people may do when
not participating in "pure" nudism.  All we can ask is that they act
like "pure" nudists when participating in "pure" nudism.
Second, I haven't looked at the web site in question.  Having said
that, I don't regard "crotch shots" as inherently sexually oriented
for the same reasons I don't regard shots of faces as inherently
eating oriented or inherently breathing oriented.
You have to ask why that person focused on that part of the body when
taking that photo and why the person who chooses that photo to
represent himself wanted a photo with such a focus to be the one to
represent himself.

And the answer is obvious. PERVERT!
Pat-h
2011-04-27 15:48:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anna
Post by Jenny6833A
IMO, the quoted blog almost totally misses the two relevant points.
First, nudism doesn't (and can't) inquire into what people may do when
not participating in "pure" nudism.  All we can ask is that they act
like "pure" nudists when participating in "pure" nudism.
Second, I haven't looked at the web site in question.  Having said
that, I don't regard "crotch shots" as inherently sexually oriented
for the same reasons I don't regard shots of faces as inherently
eating oriented or inherently breathing oriented.
You have to ask why that person focused on that part of the body when
taking that photo and why the person who chooses that photo to
represent himself wanted a photo with such a focus to be the one to
represent himself.
And the answer is obvious. PERVERT!
Not obvious no. Possible yes. Probable even.
But it could equally be in an attempt to challenge the accepted "norm"
Or to cause debate (if so successfully) or any number of other
reasons.

One shouldn't use ones own view on something as an accurate messure of
what somebody else feels about it.
Some people have strange "hangups" some have cultural differences in
perspective and some have upbringing biases ensuring that ones own
view may well not be an accurate measure of somebody else's choices.
Zee
2011-04-27 16:35:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat-h
Post by Anna
Post by Jenny6833A
IMO, the quoted blog almost totally misses the two relevant points.
First, nudism doesn't (and can't) inquire into what people may do when
not participating in "pure" nudism.  All we can ask is that they act
like "pure" nudists when participating in "pure" nudism.
Second, I haven't looked at the web site in question.  Having said
that, I don't regard "crotch shots" as inherently sexually oriented
for the same reasons I don't regard shots of faces as inherently
eating oriented or inherently breathing oriented.
You have to ask why that person focused on that part of the body when
taking that photo and why the person who chooses that photo to
represent himself wanted a photo with such a focus to be the one to
represent himself.
And the answer is obvious. PERVERT!
Not obvious no. Possible yes. Probable even.
But it could equally be in an attempt to challenge the accepted "norm"
Or to cause debate (if so successfully) or any number of other
reasons.
One shouldn't use ones own view on something as an accurate messure of
what somebody else feels about it.
Some people have strange "hangups" some have cultural differences in
perspective and some have upbringing biases ensuring that ones own
view may well not be an accurate measure of somebody else's choices.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
so how would you define the character of folks that challenge the
norms......if one challenges the norm of catching rats and finds a
better way.....all of humanity is served.....but to challenge a norm
that is an affront to a lot of religions is a differerent kind of
character....don ya think.......z
Pat-h
2011-04-27 22:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zee
Post by Pat-h
Post by Anna
Post by Jenny6833A
IMO, the quoted blog almost totally misses the two relevant points.
First, nudism doesn't (and can't) inquire into what people may do when
not participating in "pure" nudism.  All we can ask is that they act
like "pure" nudists when participating in "pure" nudism.
Second, I haven't looked at the web site in question.  Having said
that, I don't regard "crotch shots" as inherently sexually oriented
for the same reasons I don't regard shots of faces as inherently
eating oriented or inherently breathing oriented.
You have to ask why that person focused on that part of the body when
taking that photo and why the person who chooses that photo to
represent himself wanted a photo with such a focus to be the one to
represent himself.
And the answer is obvious. PERVERT!
Not obvious no. Possible yes. Probable even.
But it could equally be in an attempt to challenge the accepted "norm"
Or to cause debate (if so successfully) or any number of other
reasons.
One shouldn't use ones own view on something as an accurate messure of
what somebody else feels about it.
Some people have strange "hangups" some have cultural differences in
perspective and some have upbringing biases ensuring that ones own
view may well not be an accurate measure of somebody else's choices.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
so how would you define the character of folks that challenge the
norms......if one challenges the norm of catching rats and finds a
better way.....all of humanity is served.....but to challenge a norm
that is an affront to a lot of religions is a differerent kind of
character....don ya think.......z
I didn't make a comment on character definition only the dangers of
assuming somebody else's values and judgements match your own.
Zee
2011-04-27 22:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat-h
Post by Zee
Post by Pat-h
Post by Anna
Post by Jenny6833A
IMO, the quoted blog almost totally misses the two relevant points.
First, nudism doesn't (and can't) inquire into what people may do when
not participating in "pure" nudism.  All we can ask is that they act
like "pure" nudists when participating in "pure" nudism.
Second, I haven't looked at the web site in question.  Having said
that, I don't regard "crotch shots" as inherently sexually oriented
for the same reasons I don't regard shots of faces as inherently
eating oriented or inherently breathing oriented.
You have to ask why that person focused on that part of the body when
taking that photo and why the person who chooses that photo to
represent himself wanted a photo with such a focus to be the one to
represent himself.
And the answer is obvious. PERVERT!
Not obvious no. Possible yes. Probable even.
But it could equally be in an attempt to challenge the accepted "norm"
Or to cause debate (if so successfully) or any number of other
reasons.
One shouldn't use ones own view on something as an accurate messure of
what somebody else feels about it.
Some people have strange "hangups" some have cultural differences in
perspective and some have upbringing biases ensuring that ones own
view may well not be an accurate measure of somebody else's choices.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
so how would you define the character of folks that challenge the
norms......if one challenges the norm of catching rats and finds a
better way.....all of humanity is served.....but to challenge a norm
that is an affront to a lot of religions is a differerent kind of
character....don ya think.......z
I didn't make a comment on character definition only the dangers of
assuming somebody else's values and judgements match your own.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
well you mentioned challenging the norm ....and i tend to believe that
is not justifyable when an affront is made to many religions......then
it becomes militant or socially unacceptable......but sex and hunger
is usually the ones most folks will cross the line.....and nakeness is
associated with sex by most folks of course....z
Pat-h
2011-04-28 08:15:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zee
Post by Pat-h
Post by Zee
Post by Pat-h
Post by Anna
Post by Jenny6833A
IMO, the quoted blog almost totally misses the two relevant points.
First, nudism doesn't (and can't) inquire into what people may do when
not participating in "pure" nudism.  All we can ask is that they act
like "pure" nudists when participating in "pure" nudism.
Second, I haven't looked at the web site in question.  Having said
that, I don't regard "crotch shots" as inherently sexually oriented
for the same reasons I don't regard shots of faces as inherently
eating oriented or inherently breathing oriented.
You have to ask why that person focused on that part of the body when
taking that photo and why the person who chooses that photo to
represent himself wanted a photo with such a focus to be the one to
represent himself.
And the answer is obvious. PERVERT!
Not obvious no. Possible yes. Probable even.
But it could equally be in an attempt to challenge the accepted "norm"
Or to cause debate (if so successfully) or any number of other
reasons.
One shouldn't use ones own view on something as an accurate messure of
what somebody else feels about it.
Some people have strange "hangups" some have cultural differences in
perspective and some have upbringing biases ensuring that ones own
view may well not be an accurate measure of somebody else's choices.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
so how would you define the character of folks that challenge the
norms......if one challenges the norm of catching rats and finds a
better way.....all of humanity is served.....but to challenge a norm
that is an affront to a lot of religions is a differerent kind of
character....don ya think.......z
I didn't make a comment on character definition only the dangers of
assuming somebody else's values and judgements match your own.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
well you mentioned challenging the norm ....and i tend to believe that
is not justifyable when an affront is made to many religions......then
it becomes militant or socially unacceptable......but sex and hunger
is usually the ones most folks will cross the line.....and nakeness is
associated with sex by most folks of course....z
I think I said it could be an attempt to challenge the norm. I didn't
say it was or that was justified.
I'm sorry if you felt I'd said it was. Please re-read my post.

And nakedness isn't associated with sex by me so of course that
wouldn't be my interpretation. See the danger of using your own values
to make assumptions about others.
Zee
2011-04-28 11:27:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat-h
Post by Zee
Post by Pat-h
Post by Zee
Post by Pat-h
Post by Anna
Post by Jenny6833A
IMO, the quoted blog almost totally misses the two relevant points.
First, nudism doesn't (and can't) inquire into what people may do when
not participating in "pure" nudism.  All we can ask is that they act
like "pure" nudists when participating in "pure" nudism.
Second, I haven't looked at the web site in question.  Having said
that, I don't regard "crotch shots" as inherently sexually oriented
for the same reasons I don't regard shots of faces as inherently
eating oriented or inherently breathing oriented.
You have to ask why that person focused on that part of the body when
taking that photo and why the person who chooses that photo to
represent himself wanted a photo with such a focus to be the one to
represent himself.
And the answer is obvious. PERVERT!
Not obvious no. Possible yes. Probable even.
But it could equally be in an attempt to challenge the accepted "norm"
Or to cause debate (if so successfully) or any number of other
reasons.
One shouldn't use ones own view on something as an accurate messure of
what somebody else feels about it.
Some people have strange "hangups" some have cultural differences in
perspective and some have upbringing biases ensuring that ones own
view may well not be an accurate measure of somebody else's choices.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
so how would you define the character of folks that challenge the
norms......if one challenges the norm of catching rats and finds a
better way.....all of humanity is served.....but to challenge a norm
that is an affront to a lot of religions is a differerent kind of
character....don ya think.......z
I didn't make a comment on character definition only the dangers of
assuming somebody else's values and judgements match your own.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
well you mentioned challenging the norm ....and i tend to believe that
is not justifyable when an affront is made to many religions......then
it becomes militant or socially unacceptable......but sex and hunger
is usually the ones most folks will cross the line.....and nakeness is
associated with sex by most folks of course....z
I think I said it could be an attempt to challenge the norm. I didn't
say it was or that was justified.
I'm sorry if you felt I'd said it was. Please re-read my post.
And nakedness isn't associated with sex by me so of course that
wouldn't be my interpretation. See the danger of using your own values
to make assumptions about others.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
i know you are genuine with your analysis of nakedness and this is why
the nudist .....a speck of the population as a whole......is so
strange to the 99.9 masses that believe nakedness is a part of
sexuality mental and otherwise.......i think folks like Anna that
agrees with you on this issue knows that the 99.9 is genuine with
their belief system and this is where everything becomes so
devisive.....its like day and night....black and white......belief in
a God and not believing in a God....there is no solution for
compromise.....other than this does not cause violence but does break
up relationships homes and marriages and that is sad......z

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